Building Better Sales Skills For Firm Owners With Rob Jolles

Sales skills are often the missing link for firm owners who are highly technical but struggle to confidently enroll clients, and this conversation with Rob Jolles breaks down what actually changes outcomes in real sales conversations. Rob draws from decades of experience working with Fortune 500 companies to explain why asking better questions, listening more deeply, and shifting from order-taking to true problem solving are the foundations of trust and conversion. The discussion moves through practical techniques like open-ended questioning, trial closes, and understanding client motivation, while also challenging common fears around persuasion and pricing. At its core, this conversation reframes sales as a human, consultative process rooted in clarity, curiosity, and the ability to guide clients toward better decisions without pressure or manipulation.

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Listen to the podcast here

Building Better Sales Skills For Firm Owners With Rob Jolles

We have a very special guest. Our special guest is a sought-after professional speaker and five-time bestselling author, and has spent over 35 years teaching, entertaining, and inspiring audiences worldwide. His career has taken him to over 2.5 million miles in the air and allowed him to amass a client list that reads like the who’s who of Fortune 500 companies, including Toyota, Disney, NASA, Lilly, and many more. His books have also been featured in USA Today, Harvard Business Review, and Publishers Weekly. Many have been translated into over a dozen languages.

Before we welcome our special guest to the show, if you are stuck or have ever gotten off a sales call, realizing that you gave away free advice, you caved in on your price or you gave a discount. Maybe you felt like when it came time to say your price that you had to give a discount, otherwise you weren’t going to get the client. You’re not alone.

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Welcome to the show, Rob.

Great to be here again. Nice to talk to you.

It’s always awesome to have you here. I’m very excited for our conversation because, number one, I love our conversations. Number two, I think many firm owners are going to have peace with sales, their firm, and knowing what’s possible for them. Before we dive into our topic, I’d love it if you could share who you are, where you’re at in the country, and what you help and do for a living for those who might not have read any of our previous episodes.

The Ethical “Fire Pole”: Persuasion Vs. Manipulation

I’m the amazing Rob Jolles, at least I think so. I live right outside of Washington, D.C. I have been 32 years, on my own, crisscrossing the country and the world, teaching keynotes, workshops, and seminars on persuasion, influence, and the difference between manipulation and influence. I’m a persuasion guy. I can shape that shot many different ways, but I talk to all kinds of financial firms, police departments, and laboratories. Anybody who needs to take an idea and get somebody else to feel like they thought of it, 1that’s when I come down the fire pole.

What would you say to someone who thinks in sales, you have to convince or persuade? When people think of persuasion, it’s a negative connotation, too. Sales is negative. Everything’s so negative when it comes to these words. What’s your take on that?

The first thing I’d say to people is relax. Take it easy for a moment. There are good salespeople and bad salespeople. There are good doctors and bad doctors. I like to find the good ones. There are good lawyers and bad lawyers, but I need somebody to help interpret the law. There are good accountants and bad accountants, but I do need somebody as an entrepreneur to go through my books and make sure I’m doing things the right way.

It annoys me right out of the gate sometimes because the sales industry is so beaten up, particularly on this topic. Not only would I wish people would lighten up and realize you’re bumping into the used car lot where there are some great salespeople, but sometimes, we can get beaten up out there a little bit. You’re letting your perception cloud the bigger picture here.

As far as persuasion is concerned, this is my wish list. I’m doing wish lists. I wish that people would stop being so afraid of that word. It’s not a bad word to persuade or influence somebody. If you have a friend who might be drinking too much at a bar, are you too afraid to ask them to put that drink down? It’s a life and death situation. That’s the same for businesses sometimes. It’s not life and death, but you can use an accountant, or you can do it on your own. You took a couple of classes in college. When you get audited or when you get fined, maybe then you’ll wake up. I can’t be afraid to persuade.

Therapeutic Inquiry: The “Story Statement” Strategy

I like what you said. Your wish list is to stop being afraid. I wish people would do the same. This is going to be a great conversation together because we’re going to talk about the types of skills that are necessary for a firm owner to have. Integrate this in there, too. Why do you think prospects of different firm owners who own an accounting, tax, or bookkeeping firm don’t think the people believe them?

That is what’s on deck. If you’re a firm owner and you’re tuning in, make sure to have a pen and paper ready. What do you think are some of the necessary skills that a firm owner should have ready to go in their back pocket as it relates to enrolling clients and engaging them in their accounting, tax, or bookkeeping firm?

That can take a little while, but let’s start at the top. I’m going to tell you something that’s so basic it’s almost annoying to have to say it. There’s saying it, and then there’s doing it. I’m talking about asking questions and listening. Quite frankly, I don’t like generalizing, but if I were to, I would think that the more analytical you are, probably the more prone you are to wanting to tell people rather than listen to them. The fact is, you probably know the answer to many of your questions, but the more the other person talks, the more they’re going to trust and like you. That’s not an opinion. That’s a fact.

Reverse Engineering The Outcome

Right out of the gate, and it’s so basic, get people to remember that they’ve got to ask questions early on, and open-ended questions. It’s not an interrogation. It’s a conversation. You’re allowing the other people to tell you about their firm, their family, or whatever it is. I can’t tell you how many times when I’m working with a client, I’m in that seat. At one point, I worked with over twenty different banks at the same time. I had bankers telling me, “I’m going to explain to you the way a bank works.” Out comes a pad and paper, and I’m like, “You go ahead and explain it to me.”

Think of the alternative. I’d be like, “I’ll explain it to you because I’ve worked with so many banks. I’m smarter than you when it comes to banks. I’ll prove it to you.” I probably could. I wouldn’t ever do any business with them, but look how smart I was. I was the smartest guy in the room that day. We have to go back to the basics. It begins with keeping those questions open of what, why, how, where, and who, and listening.

Firm Owners Sales Skills: The more the other person talks, the more they begin to trust and like you — even if you already know the answer.

I always say sales is listening. The better listener you are, the easier it is to enroll people into your firm. What do you think the go-to questions are for an accounting, tax, or bookkeeping firm owner that you would say are some of the top 3 or 5 questions that they should always have in their back pocket and ask in any meeting?

If it were that easy, but I’ll try.

A few of your favorites.

I’ll give you a couple of my favorites. The reason why it comes with an *See Bottom and a footnote is because it’s going to change based on personality. For instance, I’m going to do what you said. I’m going to tell you my favorite question. My favorite question, whether I was working in a tax firm or whether I’m a taxidermist, is, “Everybody has a story. Michelle, I’d love to hear yours.” That’s one of my favorite questions. It’s so wide open. I can learn so much from what’s about to happen.

If you don’t mind, I’m going to tell you why not everyone should love that question. If you’re a more social person, you’re going to love that question. You’re more compliant. What if you’re a more dominant person, somebody that doesn’t have a whole lot of time, or that isn’t a real feeling person? You’re like, “How does that make you feel, Larry?” That’s not this guy.

It’s hard for me to cherry-pick, but we can agree that it’ll be a wide-open question, like, “Tell me about,” and it will not be a problem-related question. I can tell you I don’t care about the personality. My least favorite question would be, “Nice to finally sit down and meet with you. Tell me some of the challenges that you’re having.” I don’t think we’ve earned it yet.

Firm Owners Sales Skills: Everybody has a story. I’d love to hear yours.

I do see ourselves as therapists. A good therapist may have you pegged before you get seated in your chair. A good therapist is still going to let you paint the picture. Maybe they don’t have it right, but even if they did, think of how obnoxious that would be to say, “Tell me about the problems you’re having right now.” I didn’t go to a therapist because I didn’t have problems, I suppose, but it’s too fast. A client isn’t thinking of changing firms because everything is perfect at the other place. You’re like, “I get it. We’re going to have to talk about what’s not working, but can’t we at least start with what is working?”

I call that building rapport, open-ended questions. When we’re digging for pain and trying to understand the problem, that’s a little bit later on. With what you’re sharing, what I believe is how do you build that foundation with somebody, get to know them, and start to let them in by you listening and building that know, like, and trust factor? I love how you said, “Everyone has a story. I’d love to hear yours.” That’s a great one. It’s not a question. It’s a statement, but it’s open-ended, where it’s like, “I’d love to hear yours,” and then they get to share. Do you have any other go-to examples?

“Tell me what’s working here. Walk me through a typical day.” For me, sometimes, it depends on the firm. Who am I talking to? In my business, a lot of times, I’m talking to a district sales manager who might be managing 25 different salespeople. I’m looking for him or her to walk me through their typical day. If I’m talking to a mom-and-pop company, it might change.

If I were an accountant, and I’m talking to clients, it might not be an entrepreneur. It might be a family. The question might be, “Let’s start, but let me hear about the family.” That’s important because we might find out even with something as simple as talking about the family that we have a special need situation. We have a situation where it might be a little bit unusual in terms of the planning that goes on.

It’s not that I think a client wouldn’t get there eventually. It’s that if we strategically start with letting them answer questions, they’re more comfortable with, eventually, we have to get to the questions that aren’t quite so comfortable. Let’s put a pin in it and say out of the gate, we keep it open. We stay away from problems. We don’t need to get near what’s not working yet. We listen actively, which means we don’t cut them off or don’t interrupt.

There’s one more, if I could. Early on, maybe not the first question, but a couple of questions in, I’m trying to begin with the end in mind. I’m not always perfect at this. If I don’t know anything about you, I can’t do that. A lot of times, I may have a sense of what brought you here. Maybe it came from a referral. It picked up certain things.

If there’s a solution that I think might be interesting to you, I don’t want to talk about the solution, I promise, and I don’t want to talk about the problem that that solution would address. I can get into the area. I’ll give you an example. As a former Xerox guy, when I sold copiers, printers, and things like that, I knew that there were a lot of different copiers out there. I knew that mine, and I could prove it, was the easiest to use.

I would so badly want somebody to want that on their list of needs. When I say begin with the end in mind, I could ask clients questions like, “Tell me about who typically uses the equipment.” That’s not going to put off a client or make them feel uncomfortable. I didn’t ask if it was a problem. If you tell me everybody in the office and then some, then I’ve got an idea of where I may want to go.

If I’m in an accounting or legal firm, I might be asking questions in terms of, what type of professionals are you working with? Where are you getting your information now? I’m not saying you have a problem with that, or that it is an issue for you. I just want to know where it’s coming from. It gives me an idea of where I might be taking the conversation further. That’s always a subtle one. Begin with the end in mind. Covey said it well in The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

Moving Beyond “Order Taking” Via Fishbone Analysis

We start out by asking strong, open-ended questions and listening. What would you say is the second most important skill that firm owners should have in their toolkit?

They’ve got to be problem solvers. When I learned how to problem solve at the University of Maryland, where I’m a proud Terp, I learned a lot of different things in business. I learned a lot of different things, and I learned statistics. One of the things I learned was fishbone analysis, for instance, where we were very careful not to think that we had a problem solved because it looked like another problem.

We learned to behave like two-year-olds. We keep asking, “Because why?” A lot of times, we find things that the client can’t find. That’s where we can call ourselves consultants. A consultant is somebody who digs in and asks lots of questions. They’re not wasting anybody’s time. They’re asking, “Because why?” They want to make sure they solve the right problem this time.

I’ll give you an example. It’s an automobile example. One of the things that we traditionally didn’t and don’t like about mechanics sometimes, even when those mechanics are us, is when the battery on the car goes out, we put in another battery. Why wouldn’t we? The battery died. Yet, if we problem-solved and said, “Because why?” Maybe something was drawing power away from that battery at an unusual rate. That’s called an alternator. All of a sudden, we track back a little bit. We don’t keep putting a battery in and thinking we solved the problem.

We lift that and put that into a firm. I think you see where I’m going. The reason why we need wonderful, amazing salespeople is that ultimately, they’re the good ones who are the ones who will ask so many questions and dig so deep that they will solve the right problem the first time, not just solve the problem that the client is telling us to solve. I carry a key chain. It has a circle and line with the words Order Taking on it. I don’t want order takers. I want consultants. That’s what a consultant does.

It’s so true. That example or analogy about the car mechanic wanting to change out a dead battery is like, is it because the battery died, or was something draining the battery quicker? In that example, the problem solver or the non-order-taker car mechanic would have said, “Maybe it’s the alternator or something else.”

I had a similar issue in my house, where I had a leak after these brand-new windows got installed. I called the guys who installed them because they’re great at what they do. The owner sent his team, and his team was like, “I don’t know.” It was eight hours plus another half day the next day, and they couldn’t figure it out. They were like, “I do not know where the leak is coming from.”

I said, “Max,” who is the owner of the company, “Can you please come out? You’re a problem solver. You’ll figure it out.” One hour later, he’s like, “It’s from the roof. I can tell there was water. It was going through this old screw that might’ve been here probably for ten years.” He goes, “People don’t know how to solve problems anymore.” I was like, “Yes, and you’re good at what you do.” He was like, “If it was my fault, I would have fixed this. No problem. You don’t have to pay me. I was willing to come help you figure it out because I can’t rely on anybody else.”

Water leaks are hard to trace and figure out. They put sandbags on the flat roof. They filled it with water. They were tracking where the water was coming from. We had to create our own little mini rainstorm. That example is so true because with Max, he figured out it was the alternator that was pulling more energy from that battery. In reality, we needed to repair the roof. That’s exactly what we did. It’s so true. How do you become the best problem solver for your clients? That’s what they pay you for.

To me, the best way to do it is to learn how to develop a problem. That’s a weird way of saying it, but I call them developing probes. Most people can uncover a problem. Let’s give everybody the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes, the clients are walking in with it already, going, “I got audited.” There’s the problem. We have to stop being in such a hurry to fix it. We can be a lot more persuasive when we do this as well.

The reason why I call them developing probes or developed is that “Because why?” requires almost a level of improvisation. Many salespeople want to write down the questions they’re going to ask. You had an earlier question where you said, “Rob, give me some of your favorite beginning questions.” We can write that down. I can lean on those. I wasn’t inventing those. I was thinking of the ones that I’ve written down and used.

When we develop a problem, this is where we burn calories because it’s nothing we can write down. I don’t even know if we’re going to go into this area. If we do, I can’t keep asking, “Because why?” I have to be a little bit more nimble. I have to listen. I wish people would pause a lot more. Do you know how you want to demonstrate to the client that you’re listening? Slow down.

In particular, we’re talking about a problem. This is something that might be keeping that business owner up at night. This is not a party for them. Why are we rushing in with another question so fast? It’s okay to sit back, grab your chin, think about it for a second, and then, naturally, keep going. Let’s imagine we’re at Starbucks with a very good friend, and they’ve told you that something is not right at home.

They’re not asking you to solve it for them. They’re asking you to listen and maybe help them understand the problem better. It’s a lot of improves. It’s a lot of shorter questions rather than long ones. It’s, “Then what? Who saw that? What did the staff say? How’s the client reacting?” I’m trying to be short with my questions. I’m trying to engage and listen, not think of the next question. I’ll pause, process, and get to that next question. It’s probably the most difficult skill in selling.

Mastering The “Puzzled Pause”

I agree. I was talking to my mastermind group about this. We were listening to one of the firm owners’ calls. They want to jump right in instead of listening, pausing, and slowing down. The biggest challenge, too, for many of the firm owners, and maybe you can give your two cents on this, is that I don’t want it to be quiet. What about the dead space? What about the silence? What would you say to someone who’s new to selling and new to this kind of process, where listening, pausing, and slowing down is in your best interest?

The first thing I say is we have to remember that time is moving a little bit faster than it is. In other words, it feels like time is going fast. I’ve worked with people where I’m like, “I need you to pause,” and they go, “Rob, what do you think of this?” To them, it felt like five seconds. One thing is, don’t let that inside clock fool you. You’re probably, even when you’re pausing, going too fast. The second thing I’d say is that’s your clock, not the client’s clock. I’m not asking you to stare mindlessly into the client’s eyes.

I’m asking you to demonstrate what it looks like. If I were playing this part in a play, I would play the role of somebody who was thinking and contemplating. That’s not a dead face. That’s not a face with no emotion. That’s a puzzled face. That’s a thinking face. Don’t worry about that time. The client isn’t going, “What’s happening?” They get it. You’re thinking. We’re allowed to think. You might want to do what you normally do when you think. Don’t forget that the client is probably right in front of you or on screen.

Firm Owners Sales Skills: We have to stop being in such a hurry to fix things — that’s also where persuasion becomes more effective.

They could be on the phone. Some clients do their sales calls on the phone.

I don’t use the phone much anymore in my business. When it rings, I go, “What’s that? That’s my phone. Right here. It works.” I’m not a phone guy. I’m with my clients. I like to see them. I’m not telling you to not use your phone. If ever I have a shot and the client doesn’t care, I always want them on screen. I can hand them documents. I can watch their nonverbals and see how my questions are landing on them. I would also tell your firm owners that if you like being on the phone because it works for you, that’s the wrong answer. If you like being on the phone because the client said, “I only like talking on the phone,” then talk on the phone. Right off the bat, I’m not one who’s a fan of the phone. How do you like that?

Clearly, I’m not a fan of doing shows on video either.

Every time we get together, I always forget my camera is on. I’m like, “Where are you?” You’re like, “Rob, I’m not going to be on camera.” Immediately, when I do a show as a host, my clients are always on screen. I want to see them and watch them.

I’m all about the phone. I like to have my notes. I like to be able to listen 100%. If I’m trying to do anything with video, I can’t be 100% a great listener. I need to listen, pause, and slow down. I feel like on the phone, it’s the way to go. Once they become a client or a prospect, and they engage with us, and we’re going to work with them, then we do a lot of videos. Until then, 100% phone.

If that’s what the client wants, then I’m all for it. I’ve worked with a law firm one time. We were talking about where he likes to sit. He said, “When somebody comes into my office, I’m on this side of the desk, and the client is over there.” I said, “Good. Who’s the client again? What if the client is social? What if they don’t like that? The last time I heard, you brought me in because you wanted to sell more.

Why not have a round table or a chair on the other side? If you have a social client coming in, maybe it’s uncomfortable for a lawyer. If it’s comfortable for the client, I’m going to come sit on the other side.” It’s the second time we bumped into this question of personality. I’m not a big Myers-Briggs fan, although I have a trainer who’s certified. He works for me in it. I’m more of a DISC person because it’s a little bit easier.

It’s great. It took me probably about twenty years. I have learned to embrace a particularly shorter model because I’ve got to get out of my own head and remember that, at the end of the day, I’m trying to make this person a client. Whatever makes them more comfortable, that’s what I’m doing through my questions, seeding, you name it.

The Fee Defense: Context Before Costs

For the firm owners tuning in, choose whichever method works best for you. You’ve got to try it on. These are all important skills that are necessary for any firm owner. We have asking questions, making sure we’re good listeners, and always starting with those rapport-building questions first before we dig into the pain questions.

We also have being a problem solver, not just being an order taker, and learning how to be the car mechanic who is the problem solver. Not the one who’s going to change out a battery. We find where that root cause is coming from. What other skill do you feel is probably the next necessary one if we were to say these are the three for this episode? Otherwise, I know Rob and I could be here for the next hour talking.

Hour? We could be here for the next day or two.

Firm Owners Sales Skills: At the end of the day, the conversation about fees is often the easiest part. The hard part is finding the right firm, with the right talent and expertise, at the right time, matched with the right client.

We could probably be here for the next day. I love talking to you, but I like to keep things in bite-sized pieces. Especially for those of you tuning in, this can be overwhelming if you typically go straight to the numbers or straight to price. Typically, for most firm owners that I’ve ever worked with, the first question they get when a prospect calls their firm is, “What do you charge? What’s your pricing for this?”

I even get it, too, for my coaching program. They’re like, “Can you tell me your fees? There’s no context to know. It’s like going to the car mechanic and saying, “I haven’t even seen under the hood.” I have not hooked up your car to any diagnostic to figure out what’s going on. Why would someone blurt out their fees?

That’s what the typical firm owner gets from a taxpayer business owner who’s looking for accounting or bookkeeping. They don’t even know what they need. My point is, we could talk about all these different skill sets, but what do you think would be the third most necessary skill set that a firm owner should need to have in their toolkit for sales?

I put the finishing touches on what I call a blarticle that I wrote about this.

What’s that?

I trademarked it. It’s not a blog. It’s not an article. It’s a blarticle. In my legal definition, it has to be under 700 words, and it has to have something in it for the reader. There’s a whole little formula I tried to create. I’ve been writing them for sixteen years. I wrote on this particular topic. Before I get there, I want to spend no more than 60 seconds on what you were talking about. That fee piece, I know that haunts people. I get it, too. The first part of it is the fee for what? That’s what I’m asking. I’m like, “What fee do you use?” I put the fee bit together based on what proposal we end up creating.

This is the part I like to get to, though. I always tell them, “At the end of the day, the conversation about the fee will be the absolute easiest part of our conversation together. The hard part is finding the right firm with the right talent and the right expertise at the right time, matched with the right client. I’m quite sure we’ll be able to do that. Once we figure out what this particular project looks like, I’ll be happy to go over all the fees that are required.”

In other words, I’m reminding clients, “We’ll get to your fee, but you probably want to look at everything else.” Everybody is so focused on fees on this planet that they’re getting ripped off left and right with wrong firms. That’s a gentle reminder to say, “That’ll be the easiest part. The hard part is what we’re trying to shape right now.” I wanted to throw that in. Let me get to your question. This is what I was writing about.

The blog article.

The Truth About “Trial Closing”

The blarticle. It rolls right off the tongue. You’ll get it. Don’t forget to put a circle R when you write it out. What I wrote about was that trial closing is the most misunderstood, misused, and probably one of the most important aspects of selling. Let’s get to it. First of all, when I say trial closing, it has a PR problem right out of the gate because people think, “He’s trying to trick me. He’s got some sort of magic phrase.”

One of those magic phrases that gives trial closing a bit of a black eye is, “If I’m able to show you a way to not only have all your accounting taken care of, but done in a proper manner. Can you commit to working with our firm?” That’s called a pre-commit. No wonder people are running for the hills. It’s old and a bit overused. P.S. I don’t think it’s completely a terrible question. It’s always used in the wrong areas at the wrong time. Let’s get rid of that.

Trial closing, to me, is measuring where the client is, keeping us from moving forward when we shouldn’t or maybe lingering when we shouldn’t. For instance, when you study the way people and prospects make decisions, I know the first decision isn’t, “If I can do this, will you do that?” The first decision anyone is going to make is, “Do I want to change the way I’m doing things or not? I mean here to whine about it. I’m on the phone to talk about it. I talk about it twice a year to this firm.” I go, “You’re giving me something to think about. I’ll think about it, and then I’ll complain about your fee.” It’s a mess.

The first decision point is what we call the fix, don’t fix. “Do I want to make a change or not?” When we’ve problem-solved, when we’ve asked those tougher questions, or when somebody said, “The impact of this could be devastating for this part of the firm and that part of the firm.” Put us behind the eight ball, to put in a trial close, like, “Do you think it’s worthwhile then to look at some other ideas today? Is this something you’re committed to changing?”

The client or the prospect is going to say 1 or 2 things. It could be, “Yes, I do or no, I don’t.” If they say, “Yes, I do,” let’s giddy up and figure out what this solution needs to look like. If somebody says, “No, I don’t,” then why would you want to talk about a solution? It’s not that I’m walking out the door, but we have an objection, and we need to address the objection. We need to clarify and figure it out. It’s like a wound. Clean it. If we don’t go any further, then let it die here.

Trial closing keeps us from wasting time. The last point about this is, for anybody who’s been working on their own or in a firm for more than two months, I’m not asking you if. I’m asking you to think about the last time. You spent a great deal of time pulling resources together, numbers, and people. Not only did you not get the business, but you realized later on that you were never going to get that person’s business.

We trial close not to trick anybody and not to accelerate. We trial close to check and measure. If somebody says, “I want it fixed,” then we figure out what to fix it with. My next trial close is, “Now, you want it fixed. I got to ask you. Is that what it’s going to take to fix it?” I’m going to ask them that in a yes or no, and then I may pre-commit. There is a series of trial closes that I wish people would not be so afraid to use.

Perfuming The Pig: Finding The Right Ask

It’s so true. One of the ones I like to ask is, “Why is this important for you to solve now?” I’ll make it more specific based on what the firm owner told me. Typically, it’s about their sales problems. It would be like, “Why is it important for you now to stop undercharging to be able to convert these leads into paying clients, so you can quit your job and not have to rely on a paycheck every two weeks? Why now?”

I feel like it is important. It’s similar to your question of, “Is this something you’re committed to changing?” It’s like, “You have the commitment, but why is that an important thing for you to do now? Why not another six months from now?” If that was the case, then it’s not somebody I would want to work with because I work with firm owners who are sick and tired of the way things have been going. I’m sure you’re like that with the clients that you work with.

There’s no doubt about it. Do you remember the first one I started with, the horrible one?

Did he pre-commit?

Yeah. I did some work with IBM when I was at Xerox. IBM put a pre-commit in their opening tactic. I’m not beating them up. I’m saying, “Welcome to the ‘80s,” in IBM when they thought you know name will carry the day. That’s arrogant. They changed. I’m not beating up IBM. What I’m saying is this. It’s a style issue. I forgot the example you used, but you put out an example.

I’m not so sure I’m going to shy away from a question, like, “Michelle, I’m going to ask you a question you might have heard a few times and might have asked a couple of your clients.” If I could show you a way to do that and prove to you, we can do it better than any other firm in town. Is there any reason why you wouldn’t give us a realistic shot of working with you? In the South, we refer to that as perfuming a pig. It’s still a pre-commit, but it’s in a better location. There’s some logic behind it. Welcome to trial closing.

Maybe don’t call it a trial close. You’re asking a question to gauge someone’s intent of wanting to fix whatever problem it is that you solve when you get to asking open-ended problem questions and listening well. You’re not looking to work with a tire kicker. You’re not looking to work with someone based on price. It’s more about the problem getting resolved. Why is that becoming an important thing for them? What is their motivation? What is their why? How will their life change because of that?

Firm Owners Sales Skills: Trial closing is about understanding where the client is — making sure we don’t move forward when we shouldn’t, or linger when we shouldn’t.

Well said. I’m not sure about the industry that you represent, but in the financial industry, there are countless examples of wholesalers and firms that are trying to do business and are offering to do things for clients. They’re like, “We’re going to send you to Marco Island. You get to come to this meeting. We’re going to do this and provide you with that.” It’s wonderful stuff. Sometimes, support them financially, help them with a program, or represent them and come to your firm.

I work with clients on the other side, financial advisors. Wholesalers, as an example, will give them that. They’ll tell them, “We’ll come to support your meeting, provide this, give you these resources.” I’m training the other side of it and saying, “Do you give them your business?” They’re laughing and going, “Usually, we don’t, but if they want to pay for our meeting or come and provide this resource, I’m not going to say no.”

That’s one of the reasons why a pre-commit, late in the game, may not exist for everyone. If you ask somebody, “We’ll go and do all that for you as a firm. If we do that and do it the right way, are you in a position to commit to this?” I don’t think we should be so afraid of that particular question, but the good news is, there are many other trial closes that we can use. I’m fixated on the ugliest one.

Which one?

That pre-commit. “If I can do this, will you do that? If we support your company, provide that booth at whatever party you got there, and financially support the end of your business as well, can you commit to doing bang, bang, and bang?” That’s where a pre-commit can exist. Watch where we use it. For anybody tuning in, if you go, “I hate that one,” don’t use that one. Please, you might want to trial whether somebody is committed to change. Their whining about it doesn’t mean they are. Also, you might want to make sure you understand their list of needs before you go to solve it. That’s a trial that could fit in there, too.

The “Tune” Of The Conversation

I’m fully aligned. Thank you so much for sharing these important skills necessary for a firm owner to have in their back pocket as it relates to their sales conversations and enrolling clients into their firm. Is there anything else, and I know we could be here for hours. On these three that you want to share that maybe we didn’t talk about yet, as far as necessary for a firm owner to have in their back pocket, where they can become the best question asker, problem solver, and listener that they can be?

I will tell you this. We would nick this for a moment. I spent most of my career, 32 on my own and 10 with Xerox, telling people what to say. I threw out words. I’m like, “Here’s what to say on that pre-commit. I know it’s ugly, but use it.” Maybe the last point we have to remind ourselves is not always what we say, but how we say it.

Sometimes, when you’re writing a book, you may have 50,000 words, but there are 1 or 2 sentences that you like. One of mine was, it’s not the words that often betray us, but it’s the tune. Particularly, if we’re going to ask those more difficult questions, you have to ask them in an empathetic manner. You can’t rattle them out like a machine gun. You’re asking people about some sensitive things.

I’m not going to tell you that it’s important. I’m going to tell you one of the best ways to do it, to find your tune. I’ll give you a couple of ways. The first way is to tell the truth. I mean it. The absolute, easiest way to be believed is to tell the truth. If you believe your firm is the best in town at doing bank, it will come out that way. If you’re not the best, but you’re pretty close, say it a different way, but tell the truth. The second part is as weird as this sounds. Try to understand your character. I don’t mean your character as a human being. I mean, what character or role you’re playing. Play that role. I’m not being phony.

Can you give an example of that for the firm owner who’s analytical and left-brained, who doesn’t understand what that means?

That’s a pretty tricky little phrase I put there. I want you to think more like an actor. When an actor wants to cry on stage, they don’t poke themselves in the eye. They take themselves to a very deep moment. We throw the word empathy out like it’s a piece of bubble gum. To feel what somebody’s feeling, you have to take yourself there.

Forget me. Let’s take it to the firm owner. I want you not to worry about memorizing a whole lot of STAR stories, elevator pitches, and things like that. I want you right before you have a client to come in to take yourself to a moment where you feel unbeatable. Meaning, your firm is clicking. You’re clicking. Clients are loving what you’re doing, and you can feel it. I want people to get into that character the way an actor does.

I used to be an actor at times here and there. When I played an old man, I had some good directors who would fire these questions, like, “What does Benny eat for breakfast? What kind of car does he drive? What does his house look like?” First, I thought it was stupid, and then I started thinking like that character. I could tell you what his house looked like, and I could tell you he ate Cheerios because he was a no-nonsense guy. I began to think like that. I know this is a little out there, but it’s an interesting point.

The Actor’s Mindset: Embodying Conviction

It’s true. You have to put yourself in the shoes where you are the successful firm owner. You do have clients paying you exactly what you want. You have this renewed, found confidence where you’re turning away people who don’t appreciate you and don’t value you. You’re doing those things that the firm owner you want to be is doing. In acting, you were playing the old man who was eating Cheerios, hanging out in front of the fireplace, who had the old house with the roof half fallen off that needed to be repaired. You have to envision what it looks like for you.

When business is good, it’s easy to play a very successful character. When you’re struggling for business, and you’ve lost two clients, and the one that you spoke to earlier that was thinking of coming in decided not to. I’m wondering what that tune sounds like. While you were talking, I was thinking about the old Saturday Night Live character, Stuart Smalley.

He was like, “I’m smart enough. I’m good enough. People like me,” as he’s looking in the mirror. In a sense, that’s what I’m saying. That will improve the tune. To tell yourself, “You’ve got everything written down. Have that conversation,” I’m concerned. We’ve got to make sure that the tune lines up with the words. That’s a nice little capper for our conversation.

It’s how you say it. That’s what you mean by tune. It’s not what you say. It’s how you say it. Thank you so much for joining us here on another amazing episode of the show. It’s always an honor to have you and chat with you. I love your energy. I love all of your knowledge and your 42 years of experience, and 32 on your own and 10 at Xerox.

I started when I was four.

With your lemonade stand and other things. Got it. It’s an honor to have you here. I want to say thank you for taking the time and investing that with us. I know you’ve written a ton of books. How do people find them?

Amazon is the easiest place. Look up Jolles, or you can drop by my website, which is Jolles.com. You’ll see books, podcasts, and all sorts of nutty things.

Thank you so much again for taking the time to be here with us. It’s been an honor.

Thank you.

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Thank you all so much for joining Rob and me here on another amazing episode of the show. Make sure to pick up 1 or 5 of his books. He is very entertaining, at least I feel so. His books will help solidify a lot of what we talk about here on the show. If you are a solo firm owner or small firm owner and you think, “I’m too small to charge premium rates.” I want you to think again.

Premium pricing is not about your firm’s size. It’s about positioning. It’s about confidence and having a repeatable sales process that works. Even if you hate selling or you freeze up when someone asks you, “What do you charge?” as Rob and I were talking about earlier. It’s not about the size of your firm. It’s about getting people off the price conversation train.

Here at the Abundant Accountant, I help firm owners like you break free from imposter syndrome and build the kind of firm that works for you, not the other way around. Go to TheAbundantCall.com and book your strategy call with my team and me. We’ll walk you through exactly how to grow your revenue without having to get more clients and without freezing up on your next sales call. We look forward to speaking with some of you.

Important Links

• Rob Jolles
• Rob Jolles on Amazon
• Rob Jolles on Instagram
• Rob Jolles on LinkedIn
• Why People Don’t Believe You…: Building Credibility from the Inside Out
• How to Change Minds: The Art of Influence Without Manipulation
• The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change
• Book a Call to Grow Your Firm Revenue on The Abundant Accountant
• QuickBooks Bill Pay

About Rob Jolles

A sought-after professional speaker and five-time Bestselling author, Rob Jolles has spent over thirty-five years teaching, entertaining, and inspiring audiences worldwide. His career has taken him over 2.5 million miles in the air, and allowed him to amass a client list that reads like a Who’s Who of Fortune 500 companies, including Toyota, Disney, NASA, Lilly, Bristol Myers Squibb, Northrop Grumman, and over 50 financial institutions. His books have been featured in USA Today, Harvard Business Review, Publisher’s Weekly, and have been translated into over a dozen languages.